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Good Post... Half these commenters are fucktards... Of course agencies farm out production... What should they do? Shoot TV in house, set hot metal type, have a fleet of bike messengers. Get real people, it's always been like that... Hopefully the ideas originate in house, any good douchenozzle can execute them.
Cheers/George
The issue for me was GSP being labelled as getting digital right. What my umbrage with that statement was that because they don't execute, they are only getting it half right.
Here's a way you can understand it GP and all others who jumped on the we don't say this about commercials excuse. It would be like an agency concepting a spot, having Frank Budgen or whoever shoot it. Then going around and claiming they shot and produced it all themselves. Case in point, HP, most of the H-P digital work has been farmed out. Yet in every piece of PR and award show, GSP is the only name listed. That's not the only time but it's the one that comes to my mind quickest. Could you imagine Jonathan Glazer not getting credit for the Guinness "Surf" spot? I couldn't. Yet that's what this reporter did. In a time when money was flowing like water and you didn't have to fear for your job everyday, this probably wouldn't be nearly as big of an issue. But in the "what have you done for me lately" mentality these days, credits and slashes are crucial. Sad, but true.
Did you actually say... "George as usual you are missing the point because you don't know this industry. It's changed significantly in the past three years." I know this indusrty better than you ever will, and for the last three years, I've been working in it, probably more than most, particularly you. Don't talk through your arse. And... Try posting with your real name... That way we can check out if you really know what you are fucking talking about. People who hide behind pseudonyms usually have something to hide.
Cheers/George
You have your nose up Jeff Goodby's arse and think that means your views on advertising are visionary. They are like Dick Cheney telling us that de-regulation is a great idea in 2001. Heck he seemed right for many yrs, then we woke up one day and realized he was a friggen fool.
I have no doubt you'll keep casing checks from Goodby, or any other enormously talented people in our business, for the next several years. But any one that is not ready or willing to retire in 5yrs (and in the ad business) should run from your opinions like any smart journalist should have run from their reporting job 5yrs ago.
You wake up and realize that regardless of how smart you were, what you were doing stopped really adding value to enough people to pay you the way you want to be paid. Then your screwed.
Please, stop telling people how much admired you are. Any one that admires you is a dolt.
(would never put my real name, you would use your connections to injure my career. your old and have power that you will soon lose. woo hoo)
http://www.parkerads.com/index.htm
Your portfolio is great though. I like the Compaq clone ad.
you people are all so involved in this little ad world that you don't even realize that you're all human garbage thinking that what you do is art. you love brands that suck the life out of people. and overall you suck.
Production quality, craftsmanship and innovation do matter. Otherwise any dillhole could direct a spot. But instead of any dillhole we all want Gondry...and Danny Elfman to do the music. Work with a shitty production company and you'll be glad when you work with one of the good ones.
All the shops mentioned are excellent shops but to claim best in digital, i would definitely beg to differ.
The Barbarian Group is one of the coolest shops around but show me what they have done lately for digital? What is it that they have done recently that has blown the roof off the industry, CNN shirts are freakin cool but I would not put that into the digital breakthrough category. The chicken is over, we are long past that and I do think that the pace of our industry kind of sets a limit to the bragging rights over work done long ago.
Firstborn is another great production shop and they are very good at flashing up agency PSDs but I think they have been declining in recent years, the first ten (the Vas years) were great but as of late its all the same song and dance. I would have liked to have seen a maturation beyond the same old green screen video and canned 3D environments. They used to do artistic breakthrough work like KPF, no longer, just seems like the same old execution again and again. Great work but certainly not breaking any new ground.
Goodby... now we are talking! They rock!
B-Reel is freakin amazing, as is Domani, Rokkan, JUXT and many many others who have continually wowed us with pristine executions.
North Kingdom!!! Your Majesty??
This is a ridiculous seeded post that makes me think that Shape 78 has nothing better to do than to just burp out some random kudos...
What is this even based on? What is the criteria?
Want to see who does it right...?
http://www.unit9.com matches up with any shop out there any day of the week.
If you really want to have a serious discussion about who does digital well, lets have it, but to throw three random names up there is just a futile exercise in what looks like some seeded press.
Why not open up the discussion and let the industry all speak up about who they think inspires and impresses the most when it comes to digital?
Quick fyi..anyone that works with me or my firm for the past 12 yrs knows how much I want to win but at the same time how we try and help this industry that has given us so much in a short period of time..whether it relationships with the fwa, SoDa and competitors Odopod, Big Spaceship, Domani, Fools, etc...or contributing time and money to other aspects of this community our intentions r good and will remain positive
but again enough is enough..gloves r off
Craigy
I do agree that many of the companies you mention deserve a lot of attention and we r big fans of anyone that delivers great work consistently. Interesting thing is the one firm that is never ever ever mentioned???..hmmm could that be freedom and partners where half the company is a partner with one hilarious but logical exception....you! Maybe as your boss says you should stop "jerking off" and actually get down to some work.
Speaking of work....Do you ever actually work or just blog, tweet and pretend to be important all day? We at Fborn have taken the high road for a long time and ignored your petty nonsense.. everything from constantly calling our people, commenting within seconds about anything Fborn and of course showing our work multiple times(small industry)
While we r collecting Webby's, Pencils and signing more work than ever(direct and agency)you can sit and wonder why...and the answer just might be that you r not that good. Actually you r the worst thing you can be in life and that is average. Perhaps that is one of the main things standing in your firms way? Just a thought
This thread(16 minutes after it was posted) is just one of the reasons why nobody from SoDa, Spaceship to the One Show Club will talk to you. Yeah Craig you r correct..Palmer and I planted this story just like we bribed one show judges with candy.
Craig you r the laughing stock of this industry and all you have to do is look at the average comments for your blog. I believe it is almost Animal House GPA like...Zero point Zero
I have all the apologetic emails to prove it how weak of a producer you were during your stint at Fborn, But it makes sense because as stated the work you deliver is as average as you are...and from what we hear you have continued to need a relief pitcher for burning projects(dentsu). guess some things never change
You remind me of an old saying that was mentioned to me after your One Show debacle...
You do a great job of one thing and that is showing your ass...and Craig, you stink.
Go Away-
Michael Ferdman
One last thing....Fborn declining...ahh ok. Next time you notice a firm delivering a 30 second spot(ground breaking for us) or a project like Puma, Air Tran or Mustang all in the span of one month let us know...if that is declining I will take it
It is strange, because when I decided to leave the company and you asked me to stay over and over again, I guess it was so I could blog all day and pretend I was working, all those projects must have just worked themselves out on their own.
There is so much I can say, but unlike you I will not stoop to the level you have just stooped down to. To publicly insult me and try to stain who I am is probably the lowest thing I have seen in a long time. Especially from someone who I have always been completely honest and straightforward with.
You know and I know the truth and if you choose to publicly distort it the way you just did then I really feel bad for you and your soul. Takes a lot to have such a distorted view of reality, to be so askew that you would go this low, I am truly sorry that you live in such a distorted reality.
I am restraining myself not to go where you just went. Because frankly those who know and have worked with me know what the truth is. If you want to talk about pulling out emails, I would be more than happy to share with the world the stack I have as well.
It pains me to see you in such pain, such denial and such anxiety, all self inflicted, it must hurt to walk around with this much hatred in your heart for someone who has always been loyal, honest and hardworking and successful for you.
I don't like to air out the dirty laundry in public but I guess you came out punching.
Some serious accusations there.
It takes a balls to spread outright lies in a public forum.
There is so much I want to say and so much that should be said, but not here.
There were so many times I put out your fires, when people wanted to quit and I would console them, when clients would come to me asking why you would treat them the ways that you did, when everyone had enough of the insults and the tirades and the berating and I would always try to get them to see it in a positive light.
All that you do know about me and even the things that you don't know will make you regret this completely ridiculous outburst.
People tend to reflect what it is they hate about themselves. They show their true colors by attacking others who they know are on to them. You always knew I was never in fear of you and that I always spoke for what I believed to be true and honest.
You should have really thought twice about this public attack on me. What comes around goes around and the empty and abusive words that you have chosen to use here will pretty much sums up who you are.
Never have I once said anything bad about you to anyone, your paranoid, and rightly so, you have a lot to be paranoid about, never have I shown any work to any one that was not done by the hands of our creative director whom your company was built on and whose genius is the seed of your success, and also whom you chose to throw to the wayside as you did other people who are even closer.
What does that say about a person, who is angry each and every day, who cant stand to face himself and to recognize that everyone in his life who has actually been part of his success has been cast off because its hurts too much to know that they were the catalysts that put you where you are today.
Its sad really, the whole game you play. The seeds of hatred that you plant. But even as I say this I still have love in my heart for you, I still know that deep down underneath the facade your stuck under is a good person who is desperate to be freed from the cage that it is trapped in.
Oy Michaele, you dont have to live like this. Really.
I never got the chance to thank you for the radio you gave me, you know the one you got for free at Jordan camp, as a gift for winning Zune, or the opportunity to show my gratitude for Fila. I guess I also forgot to thank you for letting me produce HP, Intel, Samsung, Microsoft and the many other projects that have all won awards while I was at FB. I also never got the chance to thank you for putting my back against the wall each week for my faith and never letting me forget how my beliefs were to be put aside for what at the end of the day is much less important.
Show me one producer you ever had that managed to do what I had done for you, from Fila to Zune and everything in between, with a wife and 4 kids, Sabbath, Holidays and an unappreciative boss. Show me one person who managed not to kill their soul for you, because of the empty promises you dangle before them.
I remain unscathed and I am grateful that today I work for the mensch who day in and day out redeems the Ferdman name that you have tarnished, through his genuine love, honesty, caring and integrity that you lack. A man who embodies everything good that this business is about and someone who refuses to make a dime off of the back of anyone but himself.
For you and your beautiful children, your wife, everyone around you, I suggest you let go of this baseless hatred and free yourself of the pain that you endure. A good nights sleep is worth it, happiness feels good, its not too late.
Love always,
Craigy
I can't see anything from the spinning website! It's 3D and the whole site is rotating!
Is this suppose to be really cool?
--Tacitus
Shoot me an email and I will be glad to show you some stellar work.
Can I see yours?
"Criticism comes easier than craftsmanship." - Pliny the Elder
i've never met you personally (i'd like to), and i have nothing but respect for what you've done professionally. but you've criticized plenty when you have an opinion, and it's totally wrong to imply that Craig doesn't create anything. he works for me, so i know the opposite. and i can't say for a fact, because I wasn't there at the time, but i think he created plenty of biz opportunites and checks appearing in the bank at firstborn. this is stemming from a bunch of hostility and negativity. if you care, at least don't assume that what you hear is truth. making something out of nothing is sacred when it comes to positivity, i coudln't agree more. when it comes from negativity, not so much.
You have never been a craftsman. And the only employees you've ever hired who were craftsmen, have quit.
As for making something out of nothing--you're spinning an idea. It's not yours. It's the agencies' and the creatives'. You're production.
You need to get back in touch, and stop prowling bars like a creepy stalker, hitting on junior-level ladies in the industry and bragging how you and your wife have an "arrangement".
I am also really fond of our GE Adventure blog, which, to me, is a pretty interesting new direction for online marketing.
Slow and steady may not be glamorous, but it can still be awesome.
BG is as diverse as it gets, that chicken was cause! No hate, only love. To me digital is RGA, AKQA, Schematic, GrupoW, those agencies that from soup to nuts do it all, the digital is the foundation and the roof.
New is not "digital", different is not "digital" and super creative is not "digital".
Anyways... its been one of the craziest threads ever.
We're not necessarily a "web" shop, but we definitely confine ourselves to digital. If I were a CMO, I wouldn't hand my entire marketing endeavor over to us. That's crazy. We love brands, and we can help define a brand on the web, and we can even help shape a brand that's digital in some way (a website, a piece of technology), but I would never, ever trust us with a big brand's whole existence.
We're not a "just do it" or "drivers wanted"-making shop, and that stuff has value. We can only run with it online once it's defined.
- How much money was spent on media and creative
- How much incremental revenue is being generated from the site (versus not building the site, spending money on media and creative)
200,000 users sounds small -- and I'm guessing that less than 20% of those users are really active.
I think BG is smarter than most but the hype is a bit much.
but who comments like this? who is this guy? some type of curator for everything digital?
maybe I am missing something but this whole thing is silly..one person's opinion about 3 very different firms is taken as gospel? of course it is just a person's opinion
wondering if the writer mentioned mssr elimileah's company if he would be so harsh on the process? no idea but my guess is not likely
doesnt it go without saying that other companies r doing great work..but why the desire to talk about companies as if they appointed themselves top 3? what else is at work here?
seems pretty pathetic, harsh for no reason and the whole conspiracy seeded press angle...my goodness get a hold of yourself
go make your own way and maybe people will talk about you? as mentioned in my first post the best work always rises to the top
back to my rainy sunday
rr
I really have no hate for any of the shops mentioned, just wanted to help clarify the definition of the title of this article. Had it not been a hidden writer all this drama may not have surfaced.
Who is the secret expert behind all of this anyway?
you seem very passionate(looked at your blog/etc) about the industry
I know people that have worked with and at Fborn. All I have heard is positive things. Long hours but a lot of perks and room to grow. Not sure how many owners they have but one friend said they were treated great
maybe it was different when it was a "family business"because my exposure is just the last few years
anyway I am sure everyone involved regrets it getting so nasty...you seem to have an up and coming firm and firstborn is thriving
hopefully everyone just moves on
back to work
take care
Richard
C'mon. I see through your eyes and I see through your brain like I see through the water that runs down my drain.
I'd hoped to have made my last comment here, but like Webb says, damn Internet! Unleashes so much transparency!! D'oh!
Firstborn, Barbarian, Big Spaceship, Domani, Rokkan, Juxt, B-Reel - all interactive production shops that are getting too much credit for great interactive since most of their work is via other agencies. Kind of ridiculous to even include them in the conversation...
This article is a joke.
since when is the quality of the work a factor of how many flash guys the agency employs?
Ideas, however, are like assholes...
Sorry, champ. It was a bad argument two years ago and it's still a bad argument now.
I'm guessing you work at a traditional ad agency too. Admit it, I am right.
Catch a clue. You need to burst your own bubble.
Error #1 - Display banner have NEVER had any impact. This isn't a secret. It's been widely known since the first days the modern web was around. Displays have never had more than a .1% conversion rate. That's from click to purchase.
Error#2
Definition of a microsite is not vague. Only to people who don't what the definition of a microsite is, is it vague.
Error #3
Goodby doesn't develop even a 1/3 of it's digital. It subcontracts out almost all of it. From H-P to White Gold to Get the Glass, the list goes on and on. What Goodby is great at is coming up with the base concept and selling it. Anyone who knows interactive production knows it truly is a partnership and I know for certain a lot of the stuff that makes Goodby's digital as great as it is comes from the collaborative nature Goodby has with its subcontractors.
Their clients love them as an agency but they also know they are NOT digital.
Digital is NOT the same as a production company for a TV commercial. Are you kidding?
Digital productions shops may be like that (like that clown from Firstborn and his rant above).
But the major ad agencies that are rooted in digital, R/GA, AKQA, Tribal, Razorfish. They can concept and bring a brand idea to life (and them measure it's effectiveness) as well or better than most tradional agencies.
Not for every brand, but for every brand who's core audience really lives online. And the number of those brands is growing everyday.
These agencies are NOT 'partners' with the Goodby's of the world, they are competitors!
What? What the heck are you posting about? Wake up and get a clue.
The conversation about clicks is not a pretty one these days -- fewer than 0.1% of display ads are clicked on, according to ComScore.
Here's the link to the article it's from.
http://adage.com/digitalalist09/article?article...
http://www.dynamiclogic.com/na/research/btc/
Also, you might want to check out this article. I don't regard comScore numbers as very trustworthy but the results of SMG, Tacoda, and comScore is jaw-dropping.
http://www.smvgroup.com/news_popup_flash.asp?pr...
The fact that a "digital" reporter begins with the premise that banners don't work because click-through rate is less than 0.1% is a huge flag that this reporter doesn't understand how digital media works.
That said, the reporter is correct that average click-through rates are way lower that what they used to be. a typical range might be 0.01%-0.20% -- depending on where the ad runs. Social networks score way lower than premium content. Not surprisingly, search still does well.
But goldoneshow, there's a big difference between click-through rate and conversion rate (click-to-purchase). Michael Hubbard is right...1-3% is still typical.
Yes, conversion rate from impression-conversion is significantly lower than what it used to be but this is mostly due to the fall in click-through rate, not conversion rate.
think everyone should get back to work. so much jerking off, no wonder our whole industry is blind.
All I can say is that I am so grateful I never had to work for a jerk like you. Seriously. Grow up.
I can't believe people entrust their brand (clients) or their livelihood (employees) to someone like you.
One day I may be desperate enough to have to apply for a job with someone like you, so no, I'm not going to post under my real name.
But I am sure thrilled to have been with a true digital agency, vs a production shop like yours, for the past 9yrs.
Becoming involved in this thread demands I protect my reputation. I am Mark Ferdman, not Michael Ferdman. There are two Ferdmans in this business.
I conceived of Firstborn in Chicago, wrote its business plan in 1997, and sold my cousin on becoming a partner and securing $200k start-up money from his father-in-law to be at the time, Barry Schwartz, who is the original co-founder of Calvin Klein. Then, I recruited my co-worker at the time, Vas Sloutchevsky, to join us in New York, which he did.
I pitched new business, wrote every single sentence of every single proposal, recruited and hired talent, and managed every client, and every stitch of every project before I left.
We were successful from day one and twelve years later Firstborn is successful as ever by any standard. People I've never met like Jeremy Berg and Dan LaCivita, and Craig, have obviously done an incredible job of helping Michael not only run the company, but year after year making it grow and evolve. The talent that has been attracted there, Joon Park, Mathieu Badimon, John White, the list can go on, Zeh Fernando, is amazing. Anyone can be critical, but in my opinion, no single company large or small has done the amount of consistently great work year after year since the start of "all this" than Firstborn. That's saying a lot, and I firmly believe it.
However, as mentioned somewhere in this thread, a culture of bullying employees and clients and vendors was not what I had in mind. In 2002, I left and went out on my own, starting Freedom Interactive Design.
I was under a non-compete for one year. As the year was ending, I tried to poach Ryan Thomas, a Producer. He declined. Firstborn was working on very exciting work, and that was that.
A few months later, I was surprised to get contacted by Shea Gonyo, one of the two lead Flash developers. He came aboard. Weeks later the other lead developer Josh Ott wanted to come.
Vas Sloutchevsky, the amazing talent catalyzing our success behind the rest of our relentless work ethic did not want to come. In fact, he started attacking me and sending me nasty emails. I was heartbroken, but understood his position and we moved on. Matt Sundstrom, a Firstborn Art Director was the next to want to come.
With Jason Rosenfelt helping me develop biz, and Matt, Shea, Josh (and Blenderbox, a fantastic Brooklyn-based company that did our back-end stuff) doing our stuff, we started to do work that got us notice and awards.
A couple years later, one day completely out of the blue, Vas called my cell phone on a Friday and said he was downstairs outside our building. He asked if he could come up and talk, and I was stunned as I listened to him tell me he was leaving Firstborn.
We started working with him freelance, and by the end of 2007 we were talking partnership. Craig Elimeliah was somone I had never met, but saw all over the place writing FWA articles, blogging, etc. He got in touch with Vas. Vas suggested we meet. Craig had left Firstborn months previously. We clicked and decided to start working together.
From there, Robert Forras, Firstborn's 10-year CTO, a brilliant technologist that we met because he worked at Calvin Klein and helped us with networking and phones during start-up, starting becoming interested. He came aboard and Shea, Vas, and Robert became my partners at Freedom, hence Freedom + Partners.
I'm not a jerk, "Jeff". I'm not a fighter. I'll bet you would be thrilled working for me.
I got very excited about the medium in 1996 and since then I have been fortunate enough to sign up lots of projects year by year, and then execute them.
It hasn't been easy. It's a tough business, it's a constant struggle, but generally it's a great way to make a living and I love it.
We have nothing to do with SoDA because we've never been invited, perhaps shunned, or perhaps their opinion is that we are too average to make the cut. To this day, I'm not really sure.
We don't wine and dine Creativity magazine, seek speaking engagments, or do a whole lot of other things in the way of actively pursuing PR.
We're small and we pretty much just work. I'm not sure myself if we're Digital, Multimedia, Interactive, Agency, Shop, and I don't really care. These are all labels.
As simple as it was back in 1997, we help brands sell, market, train and communicate with design and technology solutions.
Mark Ferdman
Freedom + Partners
You are totally right. So sorry for the mistake.
Totally missed the name switch
Your cousin seems like a jerk though.
one question
who cares?
one observation from the statement below. You sound like an enormous egomaniac and very angry
I pitched new business, wrote every single sentence of every single proposal, recruited and hired talent, and managed every client, and every stitch of every project before I left.
Hey. Great pseudonym.
I was stating facts there. Not angry at all. My ego really had nothing to do with cranking out all that work. My passion did.
From Flash Vs HTML to Production Vs "Agency" to PR vs Advertising we seem to be getting caught up in lots of sweeping generalizations these days, some even coming from really respectable voices. Digital is growing like crazy so can we chill on the broad, impulsive megastatements and acknowledge that there are lots of types of digital challenges out there, each requiring a unique approach.
The industry has definitely been acting its age lately - after all i guess it is a confrontational teenager right now. (note to self do a blog post about that last point)
peace
Trad folks, stop hating.
Digi folks, stop whining.
Fun?
Can bigspaceship come up with great ideas and execute their own stuff, yes!!
Most clients are too dumb to realize this, thats why sucky big agencies like digitas, bbdo, can farm stuff out to production shops because their budgets are so huge, they can afford to do it. There are more talented kids coming from digital schools, and less talent coming from the traditional ad schools, everybody knows this. Thats why most people nowadays want to become a AD because its much easier to come up with ideas and have someone else do 80% of the thinking and how it should be executed. Its simple math, at the end of the day the traditional agencies take all the credit and awards, while the production shops constantly get crapped on.
1.programming and designing your ass off in a cublicle 8 ours of the day knowing the work isnt really yours, your getting paid much less, you constantly have to keep ur flash and design skills up to par.
2.Or would you want to make much more money as a "idea" guy, chilling, going to pointless meetings, and getting all the awards and credit. And having the same programmer who your farming your work to ultimately design your own portfolio site with work you barely touched or created.
Option 2 sounds good to me.
Dude, you're a fucking tool.
http://virl.com/5d306
http://www.topatoco.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=PRO...
A director's BODY of work will tell the tale and make it easy to watch and judge.
Digital Production Companies are in a much, MUCH tougher position.
By looking at the work, one really has NO IDEA how much of the execution the DPC was responsible for.
Sometimes alot. Sometimes not as much.
Sometimes they only have two or three big projects they can point to.
Since Digital Production Comapanies can't have a reel do them justice, they need PR to do the job.
So, idiotically, they squak and they moan that "they did all the work."
Sometimes, clients hear and believe them. But then agencies want nothing to do with them.
So what then? UNLESS THEY TRANSLATE THAT BURNT BRIDGE INTO DOLLARS AND BECOME FULL-SERVICE SHOPS THEMSELVES, THEY WILL FAIL.
And then you get the wave of bullshit about tiny direct-to-client projects that "prove" they can do it. They can't. CNN t-shirts? Let's be serious. I've never seen a single person in SF, Seattle, LA or NYC wearing a CNN t-shirt. And that PROJECT is the tip of the iceberg.
Until one hits a REAL home run, the Barbarian Groups and Big Spaceships will slink back to the agencies, tail between their legs, hats in hand.
And you know why, for now, we'll take them back?
Because Digital Production Companies are a necessary, wonderful partner to agencies. They just need to grow up, know their role, and prove their worth with a BODY of work.
It'll be tough, alot of pride will be swallowed and apology-project money will be spent in the meantime, but I look forward to the day that Barbarian Group and Big Spaceship carry themselves with the class of the Anonymous and Tool. (Just to name two.)
There are far, far more opportunities for digital marketing online than the traditional "agency vs brand" dichotomy. We don't even think about it that way at all. Media companies, networks, sites, content creators, entertainment companies - the picture is way more fragmented than this discussion usually assumes.
I know you wish the discussion were more complicated than traditional 'agency vs brand' dichotomy. It's not. Your agency is in a bad spot, you are super creative but not strategic or client savvy enough to be relevant to actual clients that have real business problems and huge budgets.
You can disappear tomorrow and no brands will be effected in any real way at all. Your just not a critical part of the advertising ecosystem.
Your mistake was not crating the Chicken campaign, it was using that as the model for what you pitch your agency as doing when you pitch direct clients. In the end they only hire you to come up with a campaign, not own their brand. Nor should they hire you to own their brand. You'd screw it up. Hence, your just not important.
When you can pitch a direct client and not in any way mention the Chicken campaign then you might be on the road to becoming relevant. My guess is that you cant.
I would guess you are a dead agency still walking.
If all you know about us is what you read in the press, you'd be close to being right. But you should come chat with us (like the real Jeff does)! We're not that company anymore, and we pitch clients all the time without mentioning the Chicken. Why would we? Maybe one tenth of our work is viral marketing these days. Brand planning and strategy now makes up about 20% of our revenue, and another 20% come from user experience and research. The creative department is still our largest, but it only makes up about a third of what we do.
Broadly speaking, your insights into the challenges are correct. They're the very real risks we've faced and have continue to face, and have been tackling for several years. I feel we're in a good place now, and our growth and expansion beyond pure creative and production reflects that.
As for it being more complicated than a dichotomy, I'm sorry, but it absolutely is. The main base driver for this online is the collapse of paid media. PR, Advertising, and CRM are all merging. Brands can communicate with the masses online without paid media. It's a totally different ball game. Everyone knows this. But there are other considerations. There are different, large players. Companies like Google or Fox that are massive players in online marketing that have very different relationships with agencies than traditional brands.
BUT! I would agree with you that we could disappear and no brands will be affected in any real way. Though I'd say that's probably true of 90% of the ad world. A sad commentary on our industry today!
And why does the fact that shops like BBDO farm shit out while Goodby and Crispin have hired talent away from "digital" production shops and placed them under the same roof as the rest of their creatives matter to anyone at all?
The fact is that clients (smart ones, anyway) want content that people give a shit about, and they don't care who gives it to them. Goodby seems to understand this. So does Barbarian. It's amazing how many of this site's commentors don't.
To be honest clients dont care about who does their work, as long as its executed. So the bigspaceships and north kingdoms as brilliant as those guys are, will still be production monkeys to these tradtional agencies that dont even know what flash, papervision or 3d. As long as its executed right they could give a rats ass who does the work, as long as there coming up with the ideas and winning client accounts and pitches. Like someone already said do u want to be the one coming up with the ideas, or the one stuck in the cubicle programming a flash microsite for 8 hours of the day. Choose or lose. Vote or die. Ciroc Obama dorks. Now u flash guys get back to work, and do my bidding or else ill go with another production monkey to do it.
Sucks to be a production agency nowadays.
There are "traditional" shops that get it. There are "digital" shops that get it.
But that shops that will ultimately win are the ones that focus on the content and forget about the outmoded concept of calling that "digital" and this "traditional."
Ideas will always be boss. Complaints will always sit in a cubicle and whine.
And now, It's Friday afternon, and I'm going to make an intern go down to the fridge and fetch me a beer.
what's all the noise about
who killed who's dog?
as for the question
Is this like arguing of best movie or best band
you must be having a laugh ?
c'mon this is like one of those endless time-wasting arguments - you'd be better of discussing the Stones vs. the Beatles vs. Led Zep vs Pink Floyd vs. the Who vs. the Police vs. Dire Straights vs Oasis vs Blur
blah blah .... blah blah blah
anyway please add Blitz, Poke, hi-rez, MagneticNorth, GrupoW to the list :))))
so will this be shown in the Octagon?
We are professionals, not teenagers on Myspace. Start acting like a person that can manage a million dollar Client not someone who just had his binky taken away.
When everyone stops trying to figure out the who / what (From Production Vs "Agency" to PR vs Advertising)....OR who produced / created what, give me a call and we'll do some work and actually make commerce happen.
It is the beauty of what we do...."we are a multi-platform software development company who partner with agencies to produce results...consistently". Got creative? Bring it and we'll make it a digital reality. Lacking ideas? Pick up the phone and we'll take it where nobody had thought about... Got Ideas and can't pull it off technically? Now you can....so the excuses end. Just bring the ideas and the budget to back it up.
I am Brian Daniel (402.933.4050 ext 250) and I approve this message.
www.phenomblue.com or www.phenomblue.tv
share my contacts on linked-in http://tinyurl.com/df9a35
bdaniel@phenomblue.com
The think about it, and much like animation, it becomes extremely rare to own an entire idea from start to finish. For any agency or digital production company to get full credit, where ideal is unrealistic, but what should be of utmost importance like 21stcenturydigitalboy suggests is the final idea and output. You guys all kick so much ass except those that talk and dont do, and chances are those people dont lead rocking creative teams that bang out that rad stuff.
big agencies say they have the ideas and that's where the value is; interactive shops say the execution is where the value is.
so here's my prediction -
if the big agencies are right:
then companies will continue to spend big $$ at big agencies and nothing will change there; interactive shops on the other hand will continue to get smaller and smaller as the big agencies farm out to smaller, lesser-known but talented 2-5 man shops.
if the interactive shops are right:
then companies will realize that the consistently good work is done by the interactive shops and then begin to work directly with them and the big agencies will go bust. However, companies will still need to have their print/broadcast/direct marketing needs etc filled and so
A. these interactive shops will have to generalize
B. smaller print-only shops will spring up more
C. big agencies will merge with interactive shops and handle it together(i guess how mccann bought zentropy? or for example if goodby bought north kingdom or something)
(agreed that this article is a little silly; there are tons of good shops, not sure why these were selected - something like this by an 'anonymous' author is imo just a pr piece)
Anyway, it's interesting to watch the growth of our industry, it'll be great to see what happens.
The next article is going to say that W+K, Publicis and Deutch don't get digital. Great. So what?
The only purpose this post, and the ridiculous commentary, has is to show how stupidly defensive, colluded and doomed for failure Big Spaceship, Firstborn, Odopod and the SoDa league of gentlemen really are.
Lebowitz and Ferdman: I hate that you douchebags are the public face for digital agencies. There are so many quality digital groups out there that create pretty websites, games and other ways to waste people's time, but also have intelligent, well-spoken, selfless leaders, completely eclipse your collective revenue and provide *value* to their clients (agency or otherwise) beyond the publicity and credit you so fiercely seek.
Rick Webb: based on your comments below, you are a class act and I wish TBG well.
I consider myself an idea person. I come up with my campaign, present it and make sure the client gets what they initially bought. when I bring in an external shop post presentation stage I do not seek creative input as far as the concept is concerned. the idea is sold, I am just trying to get someone to take workload off my hands. digital shops are exactly the same when used in this manner as film production companies or studio retouchers and deserve exactly the same amount of credit. I'd be pissed if they took credit for my idea.
since BBDO was mentioned in particular: NYC has some creatives but nowhere near the capacity that i.e. Publicis NYC has, which is quite something for a traditional agency. I think they're pulling more dough than the regular wing. energy BBDO in chicago used to have a great interactive creative director but he went away to threadless and they haven't had anyone since and one person -no matter how good- does not make an interactive dep. anyway.
what does happen is that I work with the internal interactive folks (in this case I mean graphic designers who basically only do web, programmers and web developers) to check that something really can be achieved in an efficient way or to bounce ideas off and see if they have further input. they get appropriate credit if they contribute to ideas or come up with their own complete concepts. frustratingly enough I have few people who can come up with a full campaign idea in my interactive department but that may be an individual issue.
banners are being farmed out to freelancers. they're like direct mail, get a specialist to do it for peanuts and don't waste your time when you have other stuff on your plate. the individual in question can take all the credit if they want, all that really matters for me is to have one or two in my book with the campaign just in case and I already have that. recruiters only want to see that you can do this as well.
I find myself disagreeing with the notion of specific shops being good or bad. it strongly depends on the individuals. most of the folks who did subservient chicken have left the barbarian group and with opodopopopodo (I never get that damn name right) it's a matter of who is going to work on your stuff. I've worked with ja(y?)son, who is top-notch, but I've also had other experiences. it's like choosing a director -who is a vendor who can add something but not always does: I will not automatically work with someone because they're on anonymous content or smuggler but I will consider them. lobo once screwed me badly and I am avoiding them because of that.
razorfish is a bannerfarm. you can get solid work out of them but nothing the least bit interesting. they're a shop I don't use since what I do is mostly supplement my existing campaigns with a fun microsite (that's cheapening it a bit, the site is as important as print at this point) and I haven't seen anything killer from them there. I'd like to work with R/GA but there are higher-ups in my agency are worried they'd go after the full accounts and won't let me.
I think I work at an agency that does 'get it.'
I think I 'get it' if getting it means that I approach the web in the same way that I approach tv, print, viral, etc. - do something you yourself think is fun and hope that others agree. but to think that web developers and programmers are creative in the traditional ad-meaning of the term is delusional. they are the modern equivalent of an editor or a special effects person and need to be guided as such. the production department is not creative department.
please understand that I won't tell you which agency I work for or who I am. you may assume I am a plumber in little rock for all I care, I've seen those two monkeys fucking their respective door knobs above and don't wish to become a google victim myself. this industry is too small.
now someone please tell me how we're gonna save cliff freeman. dude used to be great and now it's a fucking steroid-infested bumrash that can't win a joey's liquor pitch for a $5 credit.
1. all real creative people are in other industries, doing real creative things like making movies or building buildings.
2. Judging by their writing, I'm pretty sure I could lay out any Firstborn employee with not even a punch but maybe even just a sudden motion.
I'm a big fan of digital media, even though most of my work has been in more traditional agencies. I have often sought out and occasionally worked with the people mentioned or posting here. And my experience has been indicative of these comments - a lot of waisted energy and unprofessional conduct. And this is coming from a true fan of digital agencies and their work.
A couple years back I was working on an award winning TV campaign. And we needed a great bunch of thinkers to do the digital executions justice. I'm not a digital guy. I have great love and respect but it's just not me. So I was looking forward to working with some smart folks who knew their digi-shit. The shop was amazing and had a great idea. It worked perfectly with our campaign and was much more ambitious than anything we could have come up with. We started very collaboratively but very quickly it became apparent that they were having problems. They just didn't have the staff to execute the content. And the more time they spent on revisions the fewer deliverables they produced. Finally we asked if we could to rework things (on our dime) to make them viable. It was disheartening to work with such talented thinkers who couldn't execute the content and didn't seem to care.
A few months later I heard from a friend that their next assignment was also a breakthrough idea but that they refused to finish all the deliverables and walked away even though they were being threatened with legal action.
It was heartbreaking to hear that. I selfishly have such high hopes for digital becoming a haven for great ideas and original content. Two things that I'm very good at. But having such consistently poor experiences with top digital shops it makes me wonder: Is the lack of professionalism getting in the way of ANY digital shop being taken seriously?
Look, as someone who wants to see digital continue to flourish, I just hope you guys can take the higher ground. Be better than traditional agencies - not just in innovation but in attitude. Treat each other with respect, applaud your competitors successes and sincerely work to make the industry better. I hope you can make digital the best place for all creative ideas to thrive and be rewarded. Because this industry really could use something like that.
And Stacey I understand your desire for accountability in the comments but I don't think its good for industry leaders to use their real names in here. At least not like this. What message does that send to the industry and our clients when Rick W and the others can get drawn into these ridiculous swinging dick arguments? It would have been better if they didn't use their real names. Better sill if they never posted at all.
As an ex-client - that's right, ex-client kids, we really read these things (and grow the hell up, by the way) - allow me to end this argument by saying simply that if the Firstborn people spent half as much time servicing clients as they do bullying their employees, former employees, and current-soon-to-be-ex-clients, they might actually turn out some work half as good as the press they buy for themselves.
And your insights here are totally valid - lord knows we've screwed up many a job over the years. This stuff is all new. And sometimes things go wrong, no doubt. It's not like broadcast - much of it's never been done before.
I'm a lover, not a fighter. I believe:
- The Agency/Shop getting the check from the Brand is running the show.
- If Agencies would just treat Shops with a little more respect and pay a bit better, everyone will be much happier and we'll all do better work.
- Nice, confident, unthreatened professionals always give credit exactly where credit is due.
- There aren't that many nice, confident professionals in our sandbox.
- Even though that's true, you can always find your place in the sun, be creative, and do great work in our sandbox.
- The only opinions that matter are those of my clients, partners, employees, and interns.
- Freedom + Partners are special, a hell of a lot better than average.
I for one would be interested (even off the record) in hearing more about why such high level people at Firstborn jumped ship to go to Freedom + Partners. What made them do it or what were the reasons they told you? It must be more than just wanting to be part of "something new" i'm sure. Basically what's the real story here?
This has nothing to do with the quality of work produced by either shop, but rather the work environment, integrity of the shop and culture that i'm curious about.
I can only speak for myself, and I already did that above. You'd have to speak with individuals directly.
Vas and I are in final stages of negotiations with Viking on a book deal, so if you really have interest, and you can wait another 12-14 months, you'll probably find some insights when it publishes.
Vas
The "pimps" being the big traditional agencies and the prostitutes being production shops. And the "john" being the client. The big agencies if they get fed up can always get another production shop to "execute" a idea. Ex BBDO vs Bigspaceship, and the HBO project. Even though BBDO came up with the original concept, Bigspaceship did all the heavy lifting and brought the project to life.
Remember all u production shops the "idea" will always be king. Especially now in a depression production shops are hungry and are really hungry for peanuts. The problem is there are not enough peanuts to go around. Production shops can either play nice with the big agencies or be assed out, and on the street. Or get "slapped" up by the "pimp"/tradtional agencies. So most are undercompensated even though there doing the bulk of the lifting . Which is sad, but thats the way the game works. Meanwhile the client/"John" doesn't really care about the "sex"/work as long as it satifies their needs. Most of their money goes right to the PIMP and not to the one doing the actual "work".
No in a recession Clients want people who are going to bust their ass to make sure they have a SEO friendly website and dynamic content that can update in real time to market conditions..
Posts like the ones above from people who are to scared to give their real name show how out of touch with anything they are and how they are soon going to lose there job to some young guy out of Miami Ad School.. Be afraid agency CD, your realizing that your irrevelant.
whether they r called execution, production or creative agency it seems to me they r doing it right. after some research the other thing they seem to do right is treat employees to a lot of xtras. skating events, trips to the race track, peter lugers. sounds pretty good to me
this whole thread is a bit depressing but at the end of the day the work is what counts.
rr
Hey.
Partners share and give credit where credit is due.
Partners don't take advantage of each other, financially or otherwise.
Partners are collaborative.
Partners working together are unbeatable.
When we treat each other as partners, everyone wins.
Good luck to us all.
We need it.
Rather than this discussion being limited to who is the best digital shop, who on the offline side gets digital and so forth, perhaps the larger point is talking about how our field will evolve and where we as an industry is going next. One of the things that made me really sad about reading some of these comments is that it shows while we as a field have grown in terms of the creative and technical aspects, we have not done an acceptable job representing ourselves.
This post makes us look petty, spoiled, and immature. I understand that there were some cheap shots put forth by an ex employee, but this is no excuse for an industry leader and company owner to hit back with more cheap shots in such a public place. All in all, this sounds like a personal feud that should have remained between them. Why risk damaging your reputation in such a public place?
When prospective clients or agencies read some of these comments, it may make them think twice about giving our industry a place at the table. I think all of us in digital have worked hard to push boundaries and create an industry and we should certainly give ourselves credit for that; however, we also need to realize that we are a professional service and that we do not do what we do in a vacuum. It is great we have blogs to comment, so that we can debate, offer criticism, and give props in a public space. Yet, we also need to be more mindful that our individual comments also make a comment about our field.
Move on already.
It seems this is all about credit and feeling underappreciated. It's nothing new and exists in all fields. How about turning this around and giving as much credit as we can?
We're all dependent on other people to make our work great. http://digitalstrategy.typepad.com/digital_stra...
The people who slam others on here are most likely grumpy juniors sitting at home.
All you're doing is driving away clients.
Do you seriously think I'd hire any of you after reading this? Gross. There are PLENTY of other choices these days. I want to work with people I respect.
Signed,
a CD with big budgets who hires shops like yours
But every two weeks we count our bread. Every two weeks we go out with our fat pay checks and enjoy ourselves. We all do what we love doing, and if you don't - you are in the wrong industry.
Everyone wants to come into this thread swinging their dicks and measuring egos. But all I see are a bunch of children who are giving the interactive space a bad name - minus the few who are calling for peace.
Let's rejoice and sing happy songs and make websites (for the most part).
"By just adding a simple line of code to your corporate website, you can begin to see, hear and practically feel what people like, dislike, love or hate about everything you are doing online."