DISQUS

Alan Wolk · 8 months ago

Thanks for reposting Matt.

I've been thinking about this a bit in terms of how it related to Agency Spy, since clearly this site is a magnet for the sort of commentary referred to above.

The idea that's continually making the most sense to me is to adopt the same set of rules Scamp (Simon Veksner) has on his blog.

For those of you who don't know him, Veknser, a CD at BBH/London writes Scamp, which is deservedly the UK's most popular ad blog (full disclosure: he's had me guest blog there)

Anyway, Veksner was running into similar issues with nasty comments and has since instituted a set of "House Rules" on posting that allows for anon posting and an open and robust dialog while getting rid of the nasty personal attacks. It seems to be working since he's still getting upwards of 50 comments for every post.

Here's his "House Rules" Matt - I'd urge you to adopt them for Agency Spy: http://scampblog.blogspot.com/2008/08/house-rul...

Matt · 8 months ago

Is this an obsession, to police others' blogs? Why can't we enjoy the range of opinions? If you don't like the comments, don't visit. Besides, at Agency Spy, half of nasty comments are directed at Matt and his terrible writing. The other half are inspired by the mean-spirited gossip he posts. This is the Sodom and Gomorrah of blogs.

Advendetta · 8 months ago

An open forum gives every opinion equal validity. And that's not such a good thing. A while back a newspapers were trying to decide what to do with all the holocaust deniers that were writing in and wanting to get their op-ed's published. Surely their opinions deserved expression as much as any one else's right? It's a free country and even the loonies should get a chance in a public forum. Or do they? Should voices extolling obvious crap get a legitimate forum? Does the inclusion of biased, offensive or ridiculous opinions legitimize those opinions?
Let's just forget the whole "reader responsibility argument" for a moment. (It's an absurd argument anyway: on the one hand Agency Spy engages in gossip and purulent interests and then on the other washes their hands of any responsibility by saying it's all up to the reader).
The real question remains: Does a forum where everyone can say whatever they like, no matter how offensive or libelous, make this industry better or worse? And if it makes it worse, then should this forum exist at all?

Jack · 8 months ago

Advendetta - The holocaust is a touch of an extreme analogy (IMO) but let me say this: the first amendment is more important than someone's hurt feelings. As an allegedly sophisticated society we need to protect even the most unpopular of opinions, as if we don't, it's a slippery slope to our own (strongly held opinions). What happens when you are the dissenting minority? For example, right now most of america thinks gay marriage shouldn't be illegal. The numbers show that. To the majority, gay marriage advocates are "extolling obvious crap". Would you suggest that we don't have that conversation as a nation? Who get's to define what is "obvious crap"? No no... in my opinion we must protect it all unless it endangers someone's health.

Advendetta · 8 months ago

You make a good point Jack. I mention the holocaust deniers not because it was an extreme analogy but because it's an actual problem that editorial staffs around the country are struggling with. How do we offer legitimate forums for differing opinions without legitimizing wacko - or even damaging opinions? Many people would agree with you, that we need to protect the right of free expression no matter how unpopular that expression is. However, First Amendment protection only relates to the government. It does not extend into the private sector. News organizations and blogs are not government entities and have no obligation to protect anyones speech. And I don't believe that rules of etiquette would stifle any thoughtful dissent.
So my question still remains: Does anonymous vitriolic and libelous expression, help or harm our industry? Is it discourse or is it just hate from haters that damaging an already wounded community?

mcluhead · 8 months ago

Every industry, particularly advertising, is full of blowhards. Both Skittle's homepage play and the Whopper Sacrifice campaign were stunts created with the hope that traditional and digital media outlets would cover them based on their novelty factor. Maybe negative criticism of stunts will expose weak strategies for what they are.

ondownlow · 8 months ago

The thing is that blogs should have open opinion (including anonymous comments, etc.)... and not censorship of any kind. Brand Republic is a fucking terrible blog to comment on because they are super pussies about anyone actually saying anything of substance or calling people out on the BS that they allow their writers to publish there.

It becomes one huge wankfest and -- let's be honest -- the advertising agencies are completely FUCKED -- in the past, now and in the future.

Anyone who works at a BDA is either delusional or kidding themselves... be it in any department or area of specialization. I have never met a bunch of bigger wankers than most of the executive-level people at big agencies -- they couldn't give a rat's arse and have no idea how to service clients -- it is all about churn & burn with them.

Which is exactly why they find themselves where they are today...

As for the limiting of comments -- Parker's blog doesn't limit it at all -- and most of the comments there are really too fucking high-brow for most agencies to comprehend... much less respond to. It comes off as highly entertaining for those who follow it regularly though... too bad it cannot not be said of most blog comments...

Classic · 8 months ago

Totally agree with your first two paragraphs. But where's the differentiation between "anything of substance" and people just being dicks? Agency Spy doesn't differentiate at all, and it sounds like on the other end of the spectrum, Brand Republic doesn't either.

The question is, is it fine to keep the harsh but true comments while deleting the comments of people who are just looking to be jackasses?

ondownlow · 8 months ago

Well... I go with the adage "You give someone enough rope and they'll eventually hang themselves" -- you have to get your own internal BS meter to judge what is valid for you... and go from there.

If someone wants to be a douchebag in comments -- they'll paint themselves as a douchebag...but at the end of the day, more than likely that is the limit of your interaction with them... hopefully they won't stalk you and once you turn off your computer (or even click to the next page) they are done in your life.

Soy Crisps · 8 months ago

how long do you microwave a baby for?
i dunno, i'm always too busy jerking off.

Bored with this · 8 months ago

Must be a slow news day. This conversation is soooo last week.

David Jacobs · 8 months ago

Agreed.

Agency Spy must have had a huge bump in web traffic the first time this was posted, so they figured they'd try it again.

Who cares any more. It's old news.

Today's news is Swine Flu. Let's talk about how swine flu affects the ad biz. Delta Airlines stock is down over a buck a share today due to swine flu. Should they create an ad that says our planes are safe?

The Unknown Comic · 8 months ago

Delta will create that ad when (wait for it--wait for it), when pigs fly!

Soy Crisps · 8 months ago

why must you offend my religion. i hope your child grows up and fails to get a decent internship and is forced to write copy for a Federated Department store owned catalog, in the children's section.

I hate Soy · 8 months ago

Way to ruin a good thread....Jackass!

marcus · 8 months ago

And you don't think your site encourages this?

everyone · 8 months ago

"advertising is a failing industry staffed by bitter has-beens and frightened overpaid frauds"

marcus · 8 months ago

As opposed to which business? How the fuck would product sell then? Word of mouth?

Bitch Please!! · 8 months ago

Yes, word of mouth (or "Buzz" as the kids like to call it), works just as well now as it did thousands of years ago. How did things sell before there was the Internet? Before television? Before newspapers and magazines? With your narcissistic "nothing sells without me and the advertising machine" attitude, you are most certainly part of the problem with this industry. The Internet, TV and newspapers is how late-comers like you and your Mom find out bout things I already know. People like you should get off your iPhones and Blackberries and interact with some humans. Do you really believe the world would stop spinning and commerce would come to a halt if the advertising industry went away tomorrow? Dude, get over yourself!!!

the ad world is dying · 8 months ago

right - so, if the ad culture died we would have a recession, right? to the contrary, the dissolution of your culture is already in motion as a part of the cure for this recession - why else would "marketing" budgets be the first to be cut? notice how many ad people are looking for work these days? bottom lines are going up for companies without all the overhead you people incur, consumers continue to buy just as much as they did before - the Web has made you all obsolete - and you know it - say your prayers you've lasted this long thanking Mr. Bernays every night before you fall asleep in your AdWeek with visions of awards dancing in your heads. Puhleeeeze.

hinsonian · 8 months ago

it's ridiculous to posit that advertising will go the way of the journos. Advertising by its very nature latcheS onto media that is alive and buzzing, and lets others in on the brand that they're pushing. The only thing that will change is the attitudes and moires that people are digging on, which will be appropriated and regurgitated. The formula has no bounds as long as you don't stop listening. Now relevance instead of arrogance, highest common value instead of lowest common denominator. p.s. stop ur bitching.

adventuresinadland · 8 months ago

it's very simple, all decisions in the creative department are arbitrary. right and wrong is determined by who foots the bill, and who has a bigger title.

it gets frustrating. your best work dies for no reason which means you'll never get rich, never get famous.

then you watch the Cadbury Ape be considered the best ad in the world and you want to kill yourself. but you love yourself, your the smartest guy in the room. so you spit your bile outward.

Advendetta · 8 months ago

Keep the faith my brother.
Supervisors and clients can't make you believe wrong is right.
Even if you're forced to march down the wrong path every now and then,
as long as you know it's the wrong direction you'll feel clean at the end.
And if your not rich or famous, clean is about as good as you can get.

oldfart · 8 months ago

Let’s face it, the agency business has become a stinking cesspool mostly inhabited by marginal people with little real talent or skills. The seeds of its demise were sown in the 80s when the old generation of adfolk saw their chance to get rich and sold everything to the WPPs of the world who sucked the last breath of real creativity out of the business. When I began my agency career it was mostly entrepreneurs and others with no real “training” in advertising. They were people who came to the business because they could be smart and have fun and get paid for it. Sure, they had to eat a little shit sometime and remember who paid the bills, but for the most part it was a business nobody took too seriously, not even the egomaniacs, really. Then, it was a craft that is was accepted you spent some years honing. Now people spend four years in college learning about advertising and get jobs in agencies and tell clients how to spend millions of dollars. I think in an attempt to make our business more legitimate we have actually made it even more bullshit, if such a thing were possible…

Alan Wolk · 7 months ago

That's a great comment OF, glad I came back to check on this thread. While I was not around back in the day, what you've said jibes with what others who were there have also told me.

dave · 7 months ago

I agree OF and would add to Alan's original point/question; Is this something that is unique in this industry. It it easy to make a case that the general business environment of agencies is tenuous in every sense of the word. You are only as good as your last idea, the good ideas are hard to come up with, the Creative Department is self conscious about putting their babies out there to get stamped on, the account department is insecure because were they part of the process really or just meddle men, the client is nervous because if the campaign doesn't work heads will roll, and ultimately everybody is suspicious of the entire process because it feel like seduction and manipulation of the masses, so we all have a chip on our shoulders to begin with because dammit we are professionals and we do know what we are doing, and stop telling me you will know it when you see it. The bottom line is everybody is frightened except those who aren't. And those people aren't snippy or mean spirited and are healthy people that the clients gravitate towards because they don't stink of fear. As long as we foster a fear based system of motivation, pit one creative team against another, discount the contributions that the account side and the client bring to the table and actually make a commitment to work for the powers of decency - we will feel like snakes because we are acting like snakes, which btw makes us a snake. Support, nurture, listen, relax, laugh, smile, repeat. This IS a fun thing we do, we just need to remember the basic rules we learned as children, don't throw sand or step on the necks of younger children.